A Comparison Between High Fidelity and Sansar


I agree Rich. I had a Rift DK2 years ago. As impressive as the tech was, I always felt relief taking it off. It’s not fun having a brick weighing down on your head for so long. It would also accumulate sweat (the temp here can go well past 37C in summertime) like crazy. I had to take a break like every 10 minutes to wipe it off.

I love exploring virtual worlds in VR, but not creating them in VR…
VR is like tablets and mobile devices - they’re great for consumption and viewing, but too limited for productivity and work.


VRChat has cloth and bone physics. And it also has visemes that allow your face to move in response to the sounds your voice makes. And it has shadows.


I - for my part - just :purple_heart::purple_heart::purple_heart: being in VR!

When doing Google Blocks, TiltBrush or now HiFi Shapes I put on music and I get into a creative flow state which let’s me forget time but not space (cause that’s what I’m dealing with when building in VR :wink:).

If the summer gets too hot, I employ fans or air condition.

Of course - for the time being - there should be a decent 2D solution as well for people with a professional backround in desktop 3D modeling.
But - being a Virtual Reality platform - imho HiFi should definitely put its main emphasis on optimizing the inworld VR building tools!

Working in VR is the future!
My bet is that ten years from now modeling in a 2D environment will feel as vintage as the sound of a 14,4 modem does now :sunglasses:


I wonder what you do with the other 0 to 10%…
but well… the objective to do in VR, and it’s a long term project… for the software and the hardware aspect.


my rift aint even plugged in of late


You missed the point I was trying to make:

own solution

High Fidelity allows us to control the bones and the blendshapes (limited currently to the 49 faceshift blendshapes) via scripting interfaces, its so versitile, I can custom bind it to my touch pads: And thats without having to pop in to Unity create a scene that would play back an animation, or create a Prop. I basically write my script on run time, without having an approval process.

This meaning there is a whole lot more potential procedural control for avatars (watch me cast a gesture based spell to change clothes with shit shaders I made in a week and but did not need Unity Pro to write them) ), faster support for new peripherals, among other stuff, and also give us the opinion as developers to control expressions externally instead of just via animations bound, and restricted to the avatar brought in… And because avatar animations are streamed instead of playing back an animation on each instance: think of the sync possibilities with that.

We can also just plop down an object via scripts you can just run, instead of having to create an Scene or a Prop and jump through hoops for approval, and be limited via menu systems…

People can modify others scripts to do stupid shit like modify the clap script I made to make random annoying Anime noises on clap.,

If I had the time to do it, I’d rewrite the entire edit tools in a few months. Currently it sucks, but it doesn’t eliminate the fact that it can be done.

Sure Unity has a whole bunch of support baked in and ready to be used, but its clunky to get VRChat to use the powers of Unity to its fullest… It does have some great stuff, like restrictions to rooms and creating more solid game experiences (considering its Unity, modules like combat / vehicles work out of the box !), but again, control will always be restricted. This can be both a good and a bad thing.

But if High Fidelity fails and goes under, we can still use the code to resurrect it, and nothing but time will be lost.
VRChat, and the other non-open worlds, when they go down, they will stay down along with everything created for those worlds, with only the memories created in them remaining within the users that experiences them.

Tech / Feature wise Unity is going to win out, as its a game engine that has years of man hours and test cases, and proven battle-roughened engine vs what High Fidelity has to offer; After all, it is the most popular game engines out there and has a huge marketplace offering many tested ready made components. But thats the thing: Unity is not open source, nor can anything ontop of it be considered as such. Have a fresh peripheral to add? You’d have to wait until one is available on the Unity Store. Here? Get the SDK from the hardware developers, build your own Interface and implement it within a few days: If you have the know how. You could technically do that also with Unreal Engine, but with Unity, you will be forced to wait. Sure in any case, if you are not a developer, youd have to wait regardless: The possibility of doing it directly is there, however.

The VRChat Project is not open source, and is third-party development onto it is restricted to the SDK. They also have quite alot more control over what content goes in there, and as soon as someone in the game industry starts noticing, some of those content from other places will start to get removed. Keep that in mind. Same of course with High Fidelity: but in this case, its the responsibility of who ever hosts the content, not a centralized place.

But I am going on a Rant


As a Experienced Programmer, and a Hobbyist Modeler, I find extreme value in the ability to impact development on my own, than being forced to wait and ask for a specific feature to be implemented. This is what I see in being an important quality to a Metaverse: Others must be able to contribute. Perhaps it makes me absolutely biased, but if there is another equal Open (VR/Hydrid) platform, I’d jump on the chance in them as well: I do have my own, major issues with High Fidelity

But If High Fidelity doesn’t implement something We really want, We can do it for them.

Like back when they removed text chat, we were basically jumping over each others toes implementing different solutions, before they eventually brought it in through the market. When I got sick, I even made my own ( i need to actually update it) which everyone could see without having to pop those chat windows open at all.

if someone has the time and wait for approval and perhaps get even paid. And If it doesn’t get approved, We can always pool individuals together and create a new browser that works differently, with the same architecture provided, and start High Fidelity Browser wars.
Just like Second Life had their own versions made after they had made their code available via License: CtrlAltStudio and Firestorm were/are good examples of a Third Party Viewers which pushed the Main Viewer forwards…

High Fidelity may be a boulder, but there clearly is a raw gemstones inside it, that needs cutting. It is painful to use at times, but it has an unprecedented amount of freedom, which still to date still keeps me in it. If it wasn’t that open, I’d probably be working on creating a Game or something… In Unity.


To further add to this, someone was having an issue with their Kinect in getting full body tracking to work. For about an hour, I was able to pass him a script containing a fix and the user was able to run this script, even reloading the changes once I have updated it to address the next issue we encountered. We didn’t get a full solution going, but it was left with enough variables to edit that the user could tweak things on their own to try and fix the issue. This was being done in real time, with notepad and just being able to rapidly create a solution without having to wait for something to publish or be verified.


Something similar happended to me with my broken Vive-Controller.
While hanging out at welcome @humbletim wrote a script for me redirecting the flying function to the right menu button. And just like that I was able to fly again :smiley:
I’m still super impressed by - and thankful to Tim & HiFi how quick & smoothly this worked :purple_heart:


Both the curse and the blessing of open source. Nice well-thought out post and I agree with everything you said. Also, if it means getting rid of QT I am all for it. I really hope it doesn’t come to that, but if it does I will be there too.


That’s VR use. in consumer / look around mode.


That’s not journalism it’s propganda .Drax is paid by Linden lab to make this stuff .
It’s like asking Philip if he prefers hifi to sansar lol

I don’t think that’s a fair characterization. Drax has made his entanglement clear. Linden Lab pays him to create a series of videos highlighting various creators in Sansar.

But that’s it. His Draxfiles podcast, Atlas Hopping YouTube show, and other things are independent projects, not paid for or moderated by LL.

And Ryan posted my own comments. I’m not working for LL in any way. I simply wrote what I believe. And, to my surprise, Ryan and others are quoting me. I’m glad to see the discussions in the places they are cropping up, including here.


cos journalists who are payed by the company they are reporting allways say what they think.
Seems like a report on the dangers of smoking funded my Marlborough 2 me


I want to stress that I don’t believe it’s a “slam dunk” that Sansar is going to prevail over HiFi. I’m putting my bets on it, personally, but I’ll admit that HiFi could prevail instead. You guys have given some of the most compelling reasons one might believe in the HiFi model. HiFi has a lot going for it. And I don’t think it has any obvious fatal flaws. I just see critical differences - which is desirable - that will ultimately decide which model wins.

Let’s also keep in mind that both Sansar and HiFi could be long term losers. We may be overlooking other competitors who appeal to a broader audience and ultimately sap our potential user bases.


So is Ryan being paid by LL and thus guilty of some bias? Am I, too?


Are you asking me or telling me?


Sansar is a secondlife clone so wont triumph over secondlife
For vr to flourish it needs to have a use beyond standing looking at things and talking about vr
.They all need to grow appeal beyond this crass inward gazing smugness and appeal to none sl refugees and gamers


The weird thing is that I’ve heard more people compare HiFi to Second Life than compare Sansar to it. This should come as no surprise, though. Philip Rosedale drove the early development of both, so they both have many of the same features and are following largely the same development path.

This doesn’t say much about the potential success of either, of course. And, after all, SL did prevail over all its contemporary competitors.

I won’t say which I think is more like Second Life, per se, because there are handy arguments for both views. But what I will say definitively is that nothing (new) so thoroughly duplicates SL better than both Sansar and HiFi. (All the OpenSim-derived projects notwithstanding.) Really, Sansar and HiFi are virtual clones of SL with marginal improvements, compared to other significant VR upstarts.


Are you asking me or telling me?

I’m betting you know the answer to this question. Take the high road and argue valid points. Avoid the thinly disguised innuendos.


I honestly dont know a thing about you
I want social vr to succeed, but I am yet to see anyway for it to be usedfor anything more than a technical demo.We cant work here unless you count building more locations and I dont see those as enough regardless of how AAA they might look , its not getting the shopping done, its not replacing the work commute .Outside the bubble people rightly think its kinda pointless.
How do we change it? How do we make it relevant, how do we make it essential?


I agree with you here.