I know I may be harsh and critical of HiFi but


It’s only because I love it and believe in it. I think it has potential to be the future of the internet itself.

I consider myself a pretty advanced user and it’s even hard to use for me. Also, the frustration level of getting it to work on a linux server alone is making me go bald from hair-pulling and face-desking.

I might be an a##hole but I am HIFI’s a##hole! Ok that didn’t come out sounding like I wanted it to.


Most of us that stick around came here with grand plans, only to have to hold on to them a little longer for technology to catch up. It’s getting there; but it can’t happen in the short term. I’m also one of the few that sort of see this as a competitor to JanusVR or some form of virtual reality ‘browser’. I bash the concept of SL2 a lot, but realistically that is a huge market to turn my back on. I’ve proved dedication to non-VR users in the past by authoring a chat script. Seems anyone who’s anyone in programming can muster that.

I could go on and on about aspirations, hopes and dreams, but ultimately what this place needs is time. Plenty of it. Lots of creatives need time to make meaningful experiences, and the platform needs time to grow.

Until then…


I think the main issue is that there hasnt been any love for the linux builds. Last I recall there was an nvidia driver thing thats causing a whole bunch of headache for it.

It really could definitely use alot more love though and perhaps something you guys using the linux platform should push for from the devs. unfortunately not much of us do use the linux version so we may not always realize any issues that could be around.


Linux is pretty important as far as servers go.


Aye definitely, which is why it should be pushed, but it can equally right now be forgotten easilly because its so hard to do for linux and with a lack of easy to use builds (or easilly documented ones). Should be as easy as installing a package, without having to dig through the forums to find the package nodes.


Relax sansar only has 10 users also and they are all logged into second life simultaneously too
Next gen is an age group not a technology
This will take of as soon as we ask them what they wanna do.
Do we think they want a turd that faceshifts
Apple do


For High Fidelity to take off it will first need to address the following issues:

  1. High Fidelity currently has an edge over Sansar in that it enables collaborative inworld building. However, High Fidelity’s editing tools are currently lacking in many regards. A good strategy to on-board the creators who are required to help bootstrap an ecosystem is to give them tools that enable them to use their existing building skill sets from Second Life in High Fidelity.

This means that, at the very least, the mesh manipulation tools in desktop mode should behave similarly to how they behave in Second Life, including keyboard shortcuts, camera manipulation, handle bar logic when manipulating a mesh (not the existing show-all-the-options-simultaneously design), texturing uploaded meshes, etc.

This can’t be something that is left for third parties to develop. Third parties can develop alternative editing tools, for example to compete with those offered by Sansar, but the official editing tools have to be as good as, if not better, than the Second Life ones so that early adopters view this platform as a place where they can be as productive as, or more productive than, they are in Second Life.

Note that I’m not saying that Second Life’s editing tool design is the pinnacle of editing tool designs. I’m advocating for emulating its behaviors now so that High Fidelity can attract the early adopters that all the existing virtual world platforms are fighting over. The Second Life-like tools can be improved upon down the road, either by High Fidelity or by third parties, but High Fidelity can’t leave the editing tools as they are now. It’s mission critical to get them to a viable state.

  1. High Fidelity has to set an inworld-modfyable standard humanoid avatar format that content creators can target. A wooden mannequin is no where close to being sufficient to get an avatar content ecosystem going. This can’t be something that is delegated to third party solution providers.

There has to be an official avatar format with easy to use tools, such as those provided by Sansar for editing and dressing that avatar. Again, third parties can replace using that with whatever alternative they like, but there has to be an official format with attractive, easy-to-use official tools that people can use inworld.

Switching applications to change your avatar appearance is not going to fly with users who are used to having this be an integral part of virtual world platforms.

  1. Terrain editing tools are sorely lacking. Sansar’s approach to having a combination of tile-based and deformable height-map based terrain is a good starting point. Tiles that support digging into the terrain are nice to have but aren’t on the critical path to getting Second Life content creators onboard.

  2. A graphics engine that produces the same visuals that people see in Blender. You can’t afford to frustrate content creators by forcing them to jump through hoops to get their content to display the same as they intended. If things don’t work as expected by default you’ll lose all but the most dedicated users. Given that they have alternatives this loss can have a long-term affect on High Fidelity’s ability to become ubiquitous.

My recommendation is to focus on these 4 points first so that the ecosystem can start growing. You can then continue developing all the other improvements you have planned. Doing it the other way around means that the creators you could have now are going to spend their efforts building some other platform’s ecosystem. If you leave them at that for long, network effect will make it hard for High Fidelity to attract as many people as it could.


+1 to everything you just said


Noooo more like second Life is a terrible idea.second life. Is exactly like second life and is shrinking because the net gen think watching old people cyber on pose balls is a bit boring.high fidelity needs to be completely different.we should ditch desktop mode and once the tek matures and cheapens hit the consoles and mobiles
The facts say we should be more like Facebook


I wonder why open source communities haven’t embraced High Fidelity more. Saw an article this morning about the top 10 open source projects to watch out for in 2018 and part of me (perhaps naively) expected High Fidelity to be included. Of course, it wasn’t. No one outside of the niche Opensim / SL bubble seems to knows about it. That really shouldn’t be the case, since this is the best option on the horizon right now for an open source VR metaverse. It’s an ambitious project yet no one else is talking about it. Why?

I agree with all of Ilan’s points. I don’t care personally about in-world building tools and never used them in OpenSim (I used mesh exclusively), but I’m not an elitist with tunnel vision, I know most people do not have time to learn a complex program like Blender or Maya. I’m always 100% in favor of anything that democratizes content creation and makes it more accessible to the average person, so competent in-world creation tools are a must. I never liked SL, but in-world creation tools were one of the things it did very, very right and were instrumental to its success. The absence of these tools is really going to hurt Sansar long-term, and I fully expect Linden to realize this and add them eventually.


No one said we should copy pose balls Judas. What I did say is that the way content can currently be laid out and edited in High Fidelity makes it an unattractive platform for the content creators who are already building content specifically for virtual worlds (i.e. the sought after early adopter content creators who help build the ecosystem, the great majority of which have a long history in Second Life).

We all want to live in the future where VR is ubiquitous, but VR hasn’t reached the tipping point in market adoption and it isn’t likely to do so for at least a couple more years. The hardware and software layers simply aren’t at the level they need to be yet.

This means that we have a period during which various platforms, that are all vying to become the foundation on top of which the metaverse is built, are going to compete for early adopter mind share. During this time the people who are going to be involved with these platforms are mostly going to come from Second Life and going to do most of their content creation in desktop mode.

This will change over time but network effect means that the platforms that make it easier for content creators to join them now are going to do better in the long term than platforms that are only going to become attractive in the future.

Requiring people to use VR to enjoy (not just use) your platform is a barrier to adoption.

Requiring people to learn new shortcuts is a barrier to adoption (which is why many advanced content creation programs have compatibility modes to make it easy for people to switch from using other programs).

Requiring people to use all kinds of tricks to get their content to look like it does in other programs is a barrier to adoption.

Requiring people to create and modify their avatar in a third-party system is a barrier to adoption.

Requiring people to import or get a terrain from the marketplace just to begin creating their domain is a barrier to adoption.

If you look at who’s actually using the various virtual world systems that have VR as their raison d’etre, you can see that most of those people are either active Second Life users or past Second Life users. Again, that won’t be the main demographic in 2-3 years time, but it is the main demographic now. We can’t ignore that and just wait for this to change. If High Fidelity doesn’t address the adoption drivers of its potential early adopters then it will cede market share to the platforms that do take those people’s design preferences into consideration.

The TL;DR is do what is required to get the early adopters in now and evolve the UX as your user demographics changes with the growing maturity of the VR stack. Those early adopters are crucial for building the ecosystem you’ll need to get the early market to use your platform.


THIS! THIS in a giant nutshell! Ever since NVTT was added, it 100% killed my Pi builds. I know that doesn’t seem like much, but I’m still confused why it was even added. Otherwise, setting up a Linux server is a bit technical but doable. I know a few people have managed to get self managing scripts going (not sure if they’re chronned or not) and having compiled Hifi and QT enough times on unsupported platforms (natively), I’m sure the process can be greatly simplified.

The biggest thing that should help it is the Amazon server hosting (which I only recently dabbled in and am quite impressed). Exploring other possible hosting venues could also help out.


HF has also a cartoonish image to break. From day 1, what people have seen from it is mostly cartoon avatar and doll house environment. And it’s a bit what is promoted.


Seriously, what’s next… Sesame Street? :wink:

A small population…
By the way, HF is getting interesting only if people are on VR. People who are not on VR can’t really see the real value.
And people geared for VR and interested in Social metaverse is a fraction of a fraction of the population.
And this homeostatic quantity of people divided between the different existing platforms (Sansar, HF, Alt-things…)

Building tools as SL…
Yes… do it, give people the fat but easy building tools. (But also tell them they can build more optimal.)
Trust me, when their server will be a monster of lag after an abusive usage of textured primitives, they will be ready to learn deeper how to build more optimal. At least, they will have a way to start something.
For what I saw of the HF capability, It would be able to support a significant amount of this before becomes problematic, enough for a small project.
HF and Sansar are more complex than SL, which is already complex for many. I think it’s crucial to give people a way to do things very easy, to minimally keep their interest.


Your argument reminds me of Nokia insisting that people want phones with buttons or Kodak sticking with film
Vr is about hand controllers we should be focused on those tools not these crude keyboard mouse solutions old people feel safe with. You will be insisting we support vinyl next


A lot of younger people think Facebook is for old people.

A lot of people in SL don’t even know about it!



Puts her professional hat on here…

As someone who officially reviewed and commented on Netscape and Microsoft in order to evaluate which would become the leading browser - remember that? - It’s all about marketing - and to succeed (more now than then), High Fidelity needs to be aligned with the market leaders (including Microsoft then as now).

In my opinion High Fidelity SHOULD be the leading 3D browser, not an ‘alternative’ platform. It ‘should’ be accessible for users across browsers that exist today, as well as being ready for future platforms and tech. Being Open Source, it’s the only one I see going this way and suitable for a range of purposes. The back end is very website-like from a viewers perspective and can be hosted by individuals. The power is there to make this the de-facto in 3D worlds.

Luckily, High Fidelity also have a great front man, who is a charismatic and influential visionary. I believe that Mitch Kapor puts his money on the people he knows will give him a return - Philip Rosedale is that man. Mitch backed Linden Lab and is now backing High Fidelity. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor)

In conclusion, High Fidelity is an outward looking concept, without lock-in or prohibitive pricing. However, it is still in incubator mode and needs further development and mass marketing. A finished product that is presentable to the market should attract considerable investment for marketing, leading to mass adoption by mainstreamers. Get the tech right and the ‘punters’ will follow, a scenario Philip already knows well.

Given the above factors and with Philip at the helm, influencing leading entrepreneurs and global corporations, High Fidelity is set to lead this market.


See Google’s Project Soli. Mainstreamers will not use ‘sets’ of any sort. Project Soli offers motion detection and is really part of the concept of being able to do things in 3D and real together, but without clunky sets of any sort. It’s a few years off, but so is mainstream High Fidelity.


Gee, figuring out what people want is hard work. Seeing where people go, what people do, gives us the answer. HF is hard to use, but I stick around on the periphery, because it seems visionary, and I have some friends and acquaintances here.

What makes something sticky? I hate Facebook, but it’s the only way I have of finding out how people are doing without the bother of calling them. :wink:

What made me average about 8-10 hours a day in SL? I could build in world while chatting with many people, I had friends, and there were dozens of events every hour of the day or night. It looked prettier than anything virtual I had seen up to that time.

VR is kinda meh to me, I don my Vive rarely. HOWEVER, I am not the demographic you are looking for.
Animated emojis? Who said the cartoon aspects would turn off people?

I shall stop rambling now.


Absolutely @DrFran !!

People don’t know what they want until it’s put in front of them, then they can’t do without it ! Crazy I know - but it’s what makes us human (and ‘sticky’). Finding that key factor is important - it can be something as simple as a driven and visionary leader that makes something ‘sticky’ (think Steve Jobs), or making something easy to use. To coin a phrase my husband started and that has been adapted and used many times - things need to be “faster, easier, and cheaper” to make them sticky. Heads down - make HF all those 3 over other worlds and we have a market leader. ‘Sticky’ in social media tends to depend on marketing and the number of people already using it. People are attracted to people.


Screenshot of VR Chat, a much more popular social VR platform.

It’s nearly all toons. People went out of their way to upload and use specifically those. So yeah, I don’t agree that toon avatars are a problem either. They might be a problem for SL users, where nearly everyone looks like an idealized Barbie or Ken doll,with a perfect body and perfect tan. But they’re not a problem with the mass market, which is what High Fidelity needs to target to be successful.

One of the things that attracted me to High Fidelity in the beginning was the fact that I could use my fat yellow penguin avatar instead of a boring human. VR wouldn’t be interesting to me if it was just a replica of the real world.

IMO, SL avatars are not even actually realistic anyway. I walk around in SL and it feels like I’m in a virtual dystopia, because in reality people don’t look so universally perfect IRL. SL’s avatars honestly creep me out.