Unique Snowflakes


#1

I’m getting the feeling that everyone agrees on a ‘customizable avatar’ but when I go looking for that, all I find here is ‘we want to customize our avatar’

Can we be a bit more specific?

Are you interested in modifying the facial features of your avatar during runtime? (inside HiFi)
Are you interested in modifying the skin tone or flesh color of your avatar during runtime? (inside HiFi)

Are these the options everyone keeps going on about? Please let me know.

While not super-well-versed inside of Second Life; I have been there once or twice, and understand vocabulary like ‘shape’ and I know what a hair base is. :blush: but that is probably the extent of my knowledge there.

So tell me. What’s the deal? There was a big meeting months ago about Ready Room what problems do you have with it? My instinct tells me you are unhappy with the inability to modify that avatar ‘on-the-fly’ or rather, INSIDE HiFi, when and where you deem it needed.

The avatar standards outlined by @Menithal allow for these sorts of ‘abilities’ to exist here. I’m sure anyone that has authored such a tool, is waiting for the finalization of the commerce section before performing a great-reveal. No one in their right mind (from a business sense of the word) would let go of such an asset willingly.

Food for thought.

So put down your grievances (and perhaps wish-lists) here and now and maybe someone listening will take care of it.

Happy Friday.


#2

The problem
Self is the single most important thing in Vr once you feel you exist with in a place you are likely to stay
Just because i drive a car dosent mean I want to learn to service it
Secondlife has an avatar system that lets users tweak and adjust a default avatar

We nearly have a default avatar , we have a default rig

I dont understand why philips who made secondife and allready built one of these things is so oblivious to its importance

like you say people are snowflakes
yes modifying things in world in real time
I spent 3 hours yesterday talking somone through fuse.
Fuze is good but the fuze-hifi work flow is a nightmare plus the avatars look fantastic in fuse but dead in hifi

once you have to take the process into external software its 2 complex, people dont care people are lazy people don’t want to become engineers

everone installing a server they cant host their avatar on is bonkers keybase works fine but again, telling people that this is what they need to do to play the game is insane


VRChat thoughts
#3

Are you interested in modifying the facial features of your avatar during runtime? (inside HiFi)

Yes. Doable if the avatar follows the standard. Which is pretty much something I try to keep in any future avatars I will release: and Will releasing an open source (CC A) system for it (that will work with anyone following the standard).

Are you interested in modifying the skin tone or flesh color of your avatar during runtime? (inside HiFi)

Yes, but this is much more trickier and not yet doable. Simpler would be just to allow for avatar models to swap textures. Then perhaps later more advanced one we can run shaders on models and avatars.


#4

Not too much.
An avatar provider should be outside HF. Since HF will definitely want to support many.
But we need at least one.
The usecase to customize in presence of other is not the target here.
The avatar edition should not be embedded in HF that would be I think a mistake. I think they clearly want it to stay open.

Room Ready is a good exemple of where it should go.

Basically… a tool to setup a custom shape, decide the aspect. That is able to make available a HR ready avatar

This could take different form:

  • a plugin on an existing avatar creation tool (Make Human plugin)
  • a plugin to make an avatar decently editable in blender
  • a software or a system to create avatar (potentially plugged on a cloth marketplace)

everything but the easiest way as possible for the user.


#5

You have confused me a little bit. Maybe I am missing something.

VR Ready Room is functional? - yes or no
Fuse Avatar is functional? - yes or no

I will personally speak for the other two:
MakeHuman is functional? - yes and I can confirm this (no weight-paint required)
Bastioni Blender plugin is functional? - yes but I abandoned that plugin (temporarily) in July

So, for the record, we already have programs outside of HF that enable the user. So unless there is some aspect to these programs that you need INSIDE HF, then I’m uncertain I fully understand your goal.

Thanks for reading.


#6

Creation flow Complexity level.

For most of the people, using Blender is not even an option. They investment in learning is just a too high. Maya is even less an option because of its price. Bastioni is then a bit disqualified here because it work with Blender.

The flow Fuse - Mixamo is probably the limit of what you can ask to people. Sadly it’s far to be perfect, and you would need a 3rd device in the creation flow to fixe this to finally have to used a 4th one to package it in HiFi.
Let say you keep the imperfections… that is still a 3 distillation process to get you avatar. This is also too much for most of the people, they will just pass to another call.

Good news if Make Human can work. But for what I have seen, this is not very straight forward either. You still need to convert it using blender. No?

Business stability.

Fuse - Mixamo is Abobe and it is free. They make 0$ directly from that product and also probably invest a very minimum of money in the development of it. They can even close it tomorrow. So if Hifi is 100% dependent of avatar providers that can close, it could be problematic. This is why I think it need at least one avatar solution under the Hifi control.

Room Ready
They try to address 2 stardard (VRChat and Hifi) with the same avatar generator. Hifi and VRChat have different skeletons and the results is hostestly a bit clunky. (My feeling is that it works better for VRCHat than for HiFi, but I have not re-tested it since at least one month.)
After have tried a Fuse-Mixamo avatar, it’s a bit rough to use a Room Ready one.
They sacrificed the quality to economize on triangles.

It’s all about who you want that it become a user in Hifi.
For now it’s for skilled people.


#7

The thing with avatars and rigs in hifi is we can have any we choose , the problem becomes the default animations only work with this rig. If we could devise an easy way to swap out animations to a blender rig compatible we could all build using that, we coudl even make it sl compatible lol


#8

I like where you’re going with this, because I don’t believe that most users understand that the rig has to match the animation. (hell, I messed that up pretty badly a couple times. :blush: )

So, lemme ask, if I published a plugin that is compatible with my library of animations, you really think people would use it?


#9

I for one woudl say cant it be more like secondlife

if it could be done as a , heres a thing i can load from the market place rather than a heres a thing u have to dosnload then instlal net framework and a thing only thoys knows how to work, then u open a command window and think of the first number u thought of
then i would use it
its all about compatability with popular formats


#10

I am just waiting for the next major version of Blender, where PBR becomes a first-class citizen, so conversions to HiFi, will hopefully come down to the level of my ability (and patience!).

As for SL-like (basically Fuse-/MakeHuman like) avatar customisation, I am imagining a simplified MakeHuman-like written in JS that could be installed within a HiFi world (skin it like a cloning tank for sci-fi worlds, or a golem-cauldron for fantasy, etc. if you like), but it is entirely independent from core HiFi code and entirely optional. It would output an actual fixed mesh, rather than something re-modifiable after-the-fact, but there would be standard texture mappings for skin and for any clothing overlays that 2D artists could target with the expectation of consistency (please please please use a skilled UV person on that, SL’s mapping was really UGH! - though I understand the reasoning behind it).

The code could be adapted by 3rd parties for classes of non-humanoid avatars as desired, too, at the expense of potential incompatibility with humanoid textures (popular alt. shapes would gain their own texture sets optimised for them).


#11

major version of Blender, where PBR becomes a first-class citizen, so conversions to HiFi, will hopefully come down to the level of my ability (and patience!).

Sorry to be a downer: this does not solve it for FBX, you still have to do it the old fashioned way, as FBX still does not support PBR Materials. I suggest calming expectations, at-least until GLTF support for High Fidelity is finished.


#12

:cry: Could someone, in theory at least, make an export plug-in that stores blender’s PBR data in the parts of the FBX that HiFi is expecting them to be stashed awkwardly in?


#13

That’s the bit I want hifi to make for blender. Principal shader to hifi button


#14

Kind of difficult to automate such a process; thereby making it ‘Art’. I know Menithal made a good PBR to HiFi video tutorial, and there is PBR documentation provided by HiFi. We might be able to have a python script that assigns a set of textures in a directory to a material in Blender that is used in HiFi.

Is that what you mean?


#15

There are allready scripts that bake from cycles to blender render materials
It being difficult is exactly why it’s needed
It could even export as ktx textures

Just making hifi the place blender builders go-to to showcase their work could be massive


#16

Is GFTL will be usable for avatar?
Is there good converter FBX to GFTL? (that won’t be within Blender)


#17

Is GLTF* will be usable for avatar?

Initial one is static models only. I think its actually already in.
Avatars / Clothes come after that. Its only in the first few stages anyway

Is there good converter FBX to GLTF*? (that won’t be within Blender)

Khronos Group should have some for what ever tool you use , since after all it is an actual open source standard standing for “GL Transmission Format” for openGL Engines.


#18

Is there a specific skeleton setup that you are using?
Have you created one for Hifi ?

For what I have seen, it seems possible to create one specific for Hifi. (If unity did it. I supposed we could)
And whit their blender plugin to import .mh2x file, this bypass the destructive import .fbx


#19

Yes. I did create one for HiFi, but doing so ended up being completely unneeded. Effectively, use the ‘game-engine’ bones, perform a mhx2 export, then in blender you need to rename AND rotate the bones so they match the ‘standard skele’ that menithal made. I was holding back this info for fear someone else might run-off with it; but there is (truthfully) a lot involved with this.
I’ve made AVA and NPC buttons in Blender for the following pipelines:

-MakeHuman 1.1.1
-ManuelBastioni 1.5 and 1.6

Through my coding and creation I found out quite a bit about MH and MB license restrictions. Here are the highlights:

• A person or company can NOT ‘automate’ the MakeHuman export process or connect to an instance of MakeHuman in ‘server mode’
(this basically means that you cannot use MakeHuman or reverse engineer it’s open-source code to build it into your game engine or product - this is the #1 reason it hasn’t been done here already…)
• A person or company CAN use a MakeHuman export for profit or personal use. Exports have a CC0 license.
(this basically means that you CAN use MakeHuman to build and sell avatars if and only if the MakeHuman source-code is NOT automated. Bottom line.)

• A person or company CAN use a ManuelBastioni export for profit or personal use. Exports have a CC0 license.
(this basically means that you CAN use ManuelBastioni to build and sell avatars if and only if the ManuelBastioni point clouds and databases is NOT provided.)

Like I said, avatar creation is not rocket-science. I am proof that the pipeline itself is not impossible.

I am going to be offering AVATAR CONVERSIONS for High Fidelity as part of my subscription offering. YES, I will enable you to re-sell your export on the markets! :slight_smile: Only a jerk-face corporate @$$-H@7 would say otherwise.

I am offering quite a lot to my subscribers once my product-line goes live. There will be a marketing (small but mighty) campaign and I would like to advertise my services on as many domains as I can (humbly) afford.

2018 is gonna ROCK!


#20

This offer has expired…